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I wanted to start this thread so that everyone could talk about Japan on one post istead of having to jump from one to another... There are a couple things I wanted to say and also a few questions about the Japs. First of all i hate reading everyones posts who are saying that Japan is over powered and that they need to be nurfed. Japan, in my opinon, is not over powered they have excelant military and have a wide veriety of unique units which all are very powerful and most have awesome seige attack (with upgrades and cards) BUT you cant base your argument on the Japs being OP by saying its because their military is to strong. Anyone who plays as the Japs knows that you cannot compete with most civs economically. With the Japanese civ only being able to produce 75 villies you just cannot gather coin wood and food like say the french or the chinese (who can get 119 villies if you age and send cards correctly) or even india. This equals out the OP units that the japanese have, the main way that I lose games with the Japs is because my eco crashes and i just cant produce coin or food fast enough to continue making military. One good thing about the Japanese though is their shrines which not only support 10 pop but also can be inhansed by animals when they are garrisoned near them.... The only problem with this is there are only so many animals near your base that you are able to build near in a treaty game, so what do you do? you might ask your partner to send you some animals....? but most of the time that wont happen because they think it will hurt their eco.

I know what is going to happen, someone is going to reply back to this and say (the japanese have great eco blah blah) even though you have never played with them, but I have tried everything in the world to be able to be good with  the japs economy wise but it is waaaaay to difficult. Even with the coin gather rate and the food gather rate increase cards it is just painful to watch your economy drop while producing military. SO with that said.. for everyone who complains about the japs being over powered, play as them, and try to build your economy in 20 min fight after the treaty is up and you'll understand, all any civ has to do to beat the japs is out last their economy. By now everyone should know how to beat their units, every japan user knows just how devistating cannons are to their infantry (espesially Samauri) and they should know not to send calvery at their Heavy Infantry (Musket) or samauri because they both have huge attack bonus vs them. So now the only thing there is left for me to do is sit here and wait for all the Hate replys with everyone trying to tell me I dont know what im talking about... and just to get it out before hand all I can say is you obviously havent played as them in treaty.

One side note on the economy issue is I havent tried using fishing boat on water maps or using the fishing boat gathering rate increase cards, so that was my question I wanted to ask. Is it better to play as the japs on a water base map where They can produce fishing boats for gathering? I wasnt for sure if they were better at gathering then villies? so if anyone has tried this let me know.

And one last thing.. If the Japanese are over powered in treaty.. then what does that make the French.. or for that matter the Russian? who in my opinion are the two BIGGEST NOOB CIVS in the game, how hard is it for the russians to use their heavy infantry to build three forts outside your base in litterally 5 sec and spam instant units out all day.. It's F-ing rediculous and that is what ES needs to fix. The french arent as bad just extremely easy to play, with their villies gathering rate faster then normal villies they can gather food like beasts and then use fur trade.... SOOOOOO hard to do. Anyone can argue with me all day with this and you'll still be wrong, if you are one of the few who dont think that the Russian or French civs are for noobs.... Then guess what, you are the noob that everyone (including me) are talking about in these posts.

K im done with this post.. plz try to post a reply that is acually helpful with the Japan eco problem. (and yes i do switch allys in the consolate and ally with dutch and spanish for the XP and bank and all that good stuff im not new to the game) Im just looking for a stratagy that someone has figured out to be able to boom up and hang with the other more economically powerful civs if its even possible... Thanks for reading and dont be afraid to post suggestions, questions of your own or complaints about the japs..

 

their eco isn't all that great u are right. Allthough it isn't that bad either, it shouldnt be a problem to have 40k food and 35k gold at 40 mins including (most important) upgrades.

And about their military, yes they have great military. Cannons are no problem whatsoever for their cav archers who have huge bonus vs them. Furthermore their musks are very powerfull, but most important is to allways also have archers behind the musks. Actually the way to play japs is to make archers and protect the archers with musks/cav archers. And off course flaming arrows behind ur army is a must..

I do believe the japs are not really OP, i say china is better in a 1 vs 1. Simply because those darn hand mortars  take out ur artillery quick, as well as their eco advantage is too big for japs too handle. Also hand mortars can be often good use to kill of daimyos

Allthough cav archers are good vs artilllery the hand mortar en mass still is a problem
 

If you play against China using Japan you should spam all cav at them. Light cav to take out their skirms and cav archers to take out hand mortors.

So do you try to get spies before the end of the 40 min treaty? I always try to make it a point to get spies so i dont get hit from a side im not ready to defend. After I get spies though I always end up with around 18-20 k in gold and 18-20 k in food.. This is what i meant when i said they cant compete with lets say the french who will have almost 100K after their fur trade. So how does everyone compete with the jap eco?

When you click the age up button to age 5, you should change all your rice paddles to gold and try to get large amounts of gold before age up complete. Of course you have to age up to age 5 before 18 mins so spies can be cheap.

The answer to your fishing question is YES.  Japan has the best fishing in the game (see my post Japan: Fishermans Heaven)  They have all the important fishing cards that Euros do (Rendering Plant, Whale Oil, Fish Market) with the exception of Schooners.  However East Indiamen gives you cheaper fishing boats (60 wood as opposed to 40 for Schooners)  but also gives you a free dock which is a big wood relief ealy in the game.  The big kicker for Japans fishing is that Fish Market can be sent twice which would total a 50% increase as opposed to only 25%, and you get the 5 fishing boat card which can be sent twice as well (more for rush then treaty but it could be useful in treaty as well).  The only problem for Japan is defending this fishing economy, but the Consulate (when Portugal is Chosen) gives some nice Naval options including a Age IV Ironclad.

As to the general thread, Japan is not OP.  Not in treaty and certaintly not in rush games.  They are very powerful ealy on in treaty and if they breach walls and get a few Daimyo busy inside the walls they are very tough to root out.  They are also very tough because of the Consulate armies they can send essentially giving you a 240 pop civ (this is based on not having tribal TP's that early in treaty).  But you are on the money (and yes I have played Japan in Treaty) about there economy, especially because in treaty you are so limited in where you can build shrines.  I would say if your ally is already farming, ask him if he could spare a villager to heard for you.  A nice pack of Buffalo or deer would be great to boost shrine output.  The key is making the most of your overwhelming numbers and power of your military early on.   

Thank you very much for the help, I guess I have to make a deck that will supposrt a fishing based economy. Another thing I would like to ask is how good are the consulate armies that Japan can recieve? I usually dont rely on them or even think twice about using them except for the hatamoto samurai or whatever just because they are extremly powerful. Also what cards should I chose to add to a deck to make a strong fishing eco? and how do you usually aproach the begining of a game using fishing as your econ, what i mean is, what cards do you send first and how many fishing boats should i make total and where should i place villies and so on.. Keep in mind I havent used fishing at all mostly because no one plays water base maps but im willing to try anything to be able to produce a better economy.

Consulate armies in Age V are significant.  Get you pop up to 199 and then take your pick.  I like the Portugese army.  I believe it gives 8 Dragoons and 4 Horse Artillery.  Having that added to your forces makes a difference. JUST REMEMBER TO SWITCH BACK TO ISOLATION. A great tactic is to time the arrival of a large consulate army.  Set your Daimyo as the location to recieve shipments and get them in just before treaty ends.  They will swing any standing battle your way.

Fishing in treaty can realy depend on the map.  Indochina, Borneo, and Honshu all provide enough whale for fishing decks. In older maps, it can be tricky, because while there is lots of water there may only be 4 Whaling locations. You have to remember though that others will fish as well and you have to get to whale locations early.  I would send the cards like this.

1. East Indiamen

2. 5 Fishing boats

3. 5 Fishing boats

4.  Rendering Plant

5.  Fish Market

6.  Fish Market

7.  Whale OIl 

 

Thanks alot man ill have to try that out.. I never thought about consulate armies just because I didnt think that they were fully upgraded military units or anything.. But either way thanks alot, I cant wait to try this fishing strat out and see how it goes.. if there is anything else you think would be helpful just let me know..

Let me know if it works for you.  Also, for the fish boom make at least 1 more dock and I would say about another 15-20 fishing boats (again depending on the map) on top of the 10 you get from cards.  Get to the whale locations early.  Once you clear out all available fishing location (and in treaty this will happen)  get  as many to fill up remaining whale locations as you can.  You may end up deleting fishing boats but trust me, they served there purpose!

 

I always make 3 docks when I fish boom, que up 4 fishing boats each dock and set waypoint to a whale.