AOE3 Forums

EtherImp:

RasRas:

i didnt see much about countering a boom....

 

the best counter to an ff IMO is a boom with either fish, british houses, or laming japan.

 

FF i find is best agianst a medium rush (if they are a slow starting civ, or dont do a strong rush),  and excellent agaisnt a turtler.

 

FF is a solid strategy that pros use all the time... the only reason it would be too bad is if u have been talking about team games....

-FF counter most booms, and Semi-FF (sometimes).

Normally a FF comes before a boom has really started "booming". A Brit player, for example, will still be working on getting his Age2 Eco going when Age3 units come storming into his base raping the very eco he was hoping to build up. Most Semi-FF's don't make a whole lot of military before going to Age3... so their age2 military will be relatively small in number and the will arrive at Age3 later than the FFer, albiet with a much stronger eco. 


-Fast Age2 rush/containment counters most booms and naked FF's.

Rush/Containment takes map control, picks off villagers, doesn't allow the boomer to boom or the FFer to Fort.

-Booms counter Turtles and military (as opposed to eco) based Semi-FF's.

Boom gets map control vs Turtlers, and will out-eco them. By the time a Semi-FF peaks (around 10-15 minutes) a boomer usually has a stable enough and strong enough military to fend off their Age3 military.

-Semi-FF and Turtles counters most fast rushes.

Turtles shell up and protect their eco, then overwhelm the rusher with more units. Semi-FF has enough units to fend off early rushes, then counters the rusher with more/better Age3 units before the rusher has enough time to get his eco inline.

I wouldn't say FF counters a boom TBH. It more of counters turtle. People can boom and go fortress at same time whcih does fine vs regular FF.

EtherImp:

Tell me what civ you want to FF with and either myself or someone else here can give you a decent build order.

Lower PR's (say..2nd Lt and lower), FF's work fabulous against most civs, with the exception of a few fast rushers. (Iro, Otto, Aztec, etc)

I like Dutch. What time I shall be in Fortress in FF strategy? I usually make it around 8-9 min. I would not have any army yet though and may be 1 shipment available. So what do I do against army of 25-30 musketeers Russian is bringing in for example.

Some people try to make rules about what counters what and try to make a game like rock/paper/scissors. When it comes to choosing strategies one must use a progressive judgement system and not rely on rules, because rules often forget certain situations.  Every game is different.

 Once you develop this system you can draw from previous experiences you have experienced or experiences you have been witness to in order to make the best decision. Can FF ever work? Yes. How? By using your judgement of the current situation and those from the past, you can make the right decision.

but general rules of thumb:

semi ff > ff

rush > ff

rush > semi ff

boom > turtle

 turtle > rush

rush > boom

It does.. Bart has it all backwards. He also said a Semi-FF beats a FF.. which it *usually* doesn't.

Sun, my post was a "general" rule of thumb.. Obviously not all of X type of strat beat all of Y type of strat. It also depends on civs and skill levels and a lot of other factors.

semi ff beats ff cause u will harass him enough so his eco will be messed up when he reaches fortress, u will follow closely after him and win easily. GG

rush beats semi ff cause both players start out making units and stuff, but the one who stops making units (the semi ff dude ) will loose his complete army against the bigger rush army. He will loose map control, and will be too late in age3 to effectively counter with the superior age3 unit shipments. GG

Bart331:

semi ff beats ff cause u will harass him enough so his eco will be messed up when he reaches fortress, u will follow closely after him and win easily. GG

rush beats semi ff cause both players start out making units and stuff, but the one who stops making units (the semi ff dude ) will loose his complete army against the bigger rush army. He will loose map control, and will be too late in age3 to effectively counter with the superior age3 unit shipments. GG

Except... A semi-FF army is not generally strong enough to down someones TC, and whatever shipments the FF'er gets upon hitting Age3 will wipe the Semi-FF persons army out, and usually be enough to drop a TC.

 (IE - Lands, 2 Cannons, etc.. Along with a support army.)

A rush beating a Semi-FF? I guess it depends on what you consider a "rush".

I consider a rush anything that comes before 8 minutes.

If the attack comes at 11-12 minutes.. Yes.. The attack will destroy the Semi-FF because that will be the Semi-FF's "vulnerable" period.

But I wouldn't call that a rush. I would call that an "Extended colonial".. Where a person stays in colonial as long as it takes to either win or get enough resources to age while constantly making military.

Again, these are 2 examples of the "fuzzy grey area" where it depends on the civ, and HOW the player is executing the strategy.

For example..

A Fast Fortress doesn't necessarily have to send military shipments... What if.. What if a FF got to Fort, laid down a Fortress on top of some gold/wood/hunts, then built a TC, focused on market upgrades and taking sea control and making enough military to defend with?

See .. that's more of a turtle. Sort of what a lot of Ports do. They typically go FF and immediately get their 3rd TC down, may or may not build a fort, and start booming their eco and just pumping units from rax.. MAYBE sending 2 Organ guns from a HC shipment.

Countering THAT Fast Fortress is a lot different than countering a German FF (Where you would probably just want to rush/harass early), or countering a Spanish FF (where you probably want to FF yourself.)

Point being.. It's not "black and white".. Not ALL FF's beat ALL Semi-FF's, for example. It's just a general idea.

Oh, and to respond to the OP about Dutch.

I am not sure on an exact build order, but it shouldn't be difficult to find a recording of a Dutch FFing because most of them FF or Semi-FF. Goodspeed might be able to give you a quick rundown.

I *think* you send 700 wood, build banks, switch some villies to food and some to gold, click age button, then distribute your villies more evenly.

I could be wrong though. I have a TWC recording of myself playing vs a Dutch Major or Captain who did a FF. If you have TWC I could send it to you, or I could just review it myself and give you the breakdown of his strategy.

EtherImp:

Oh, and to respond to the OP about Dutch.

 

I am not sure on an exact build order, but it shouldn't be difficult to find a recording of a Dutch FFing because most of them FF or Semi-FF. Goodspeed might be able to give you a quick rundown.

I *think* you send 700 wood, build banks, switch some villies to food and some to gold, click age button, then distribute your villies more evenly.

I could be wrong though. I have a TWC recording of myself playing vs a Dutch Major or Captain who did a FF. If you have TWC I could send it to you, or I could just review it myself and give you the breakdown of his strategy.

I have TAD and TWC. Please send recording or post it here since it's usefull for somebody with the same questions.

artisticcheese:

EtherImp:

Oh, and to respond to the OP about Dutch.

 

I am not sure on an exact build order, but it shouldn't be difficult to find a recording of a Dutch FFing because most of them FF or Semi-FF. Goodspeed might be able to give you a quick rundown.

I *think* you send 700 wood, build banks, switch some villies to food and some to gold, click age button, then distribute your villies more evenly.

I could be wrong though. I have a TWC recording of myself playing vs a Dutch Major or Captain who did a FF. If you have TWC I could send it to you, or I could just review it myself and give you the breakdown of his strategy.

I have TAD and TWC. Please send recording or post it here since it's usefull for somebody with the same questions.

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=210297

This should still work.

Edit: I was wrong about his rank.. I think we were both 1st Lt's at the time of the recording. Highest I made it in TWC I think was Captain or possibly major. I do remember beating a couple of Lt Col's though.

Also, be sure to read the review of the game for more insight. I think Bryce's FF may have not been "standard".. The reviewer gives a breakdown of this.

EtherImp:

Bart331:

semi ff beats ff cause u will harass him enough so his eco will be messed up when he reaches fortress, u will follow closely after him and win easily. GG

rush beats semi ff cause both players start out making units and stuff, but the one who stops making units (the semi ff dude ) will loose his complete army against the bigger rush army. He will loose map control, and will be too late in age3 to effectively counter with the superior age3 unit shipments. GG

 

Except... A semi-FF army is not generally strong enough to down someones TC, and whatever shipments the FF'er gets upon hitting Age3 will wipe the Semi-FF persons army out, and usually be enough to drop a TC.

I said u should harass, harassing isnt taking down tc;s , kill vills, destroy houses/military buildings, make hunting impossible. also u harass early colonial and should hit fortress not much later then him. Simply retreat when he hits fortress :)

 (IE - Lands, 2 Cannons, etc.. Along with a support army.)

A rush beating a Semi-FF? I guess it depends on what you consider a "rush".

I consider a rush anything that comes before 8 minutes.

I dont know who you have been playing but i call a rush when the attack comes asap in colonial.

If the attack comes at 11-12 minutes.. Yes.. The attack will destroy the Semi-FF because that will be the Semi-FF's "vulnerable" period.

no the vulnerable point is when the semi-ff hits fortress (around 9-10 minute mark), he doesnt have any fortress units yet and is facing a large colonial army.

But I wouldn't call that a rush. I would call that an "Extended colonial".. Where a person stays in colonial as long as it takes to either win or get enough resources to age while constantly making military.

Again, these are 2 examples of the "fuzzy grey area" where it depends on the civ, and HOW the player is executing the strategy.

For example..

A Fast Fortress doesn't necessarily have to send military shipments... What if.. What if a FF got to Fort, laid down a Fortress on top of some gold/wood/hunts, then built a TC, focused on market upgrades and taking sea control and making enough military to defend with?

See .. that's more of a turtle. Sort of what a lot of Ports do. They typically go FF and immediately get their 3rd TC down, may or may not build a fort, and start booming their eco and just pumping units from rax.. MAYBE sending 2 Organ guns from a HC shipment.

Countering THAT Fast Fortress is a lot different than countering a German FF (Where you would probably just want to rush/harass early), or countering a Spanish FF (where you probably want to FF yourself.)

 

Point being.. It's not "black and white".. Not ALL FF's beat ALL Semi-FF's, for example. It's just a general idea.

 Thats why i said it were general rules of thumb, so they wont be valid in all cases einstein