AOE3 Forums

Lol, I just came up with a great idea to boost the Dutch early game.

• Let the Explorer train envoys instead of the TC

This way, making more envoys doesnt conflict with making more villies, so both are possible. This would give the Dutch a great scouting edge. Either this, or...

• Remove Envoys altogether, turn Team: 3 Envoys into Team: 2 Settlers in Discovery and prevent them from being trained at all.
• Let them start with a Spy instead

This will probably be OP, but it would be cool for dutch to have a nice scouting bonus, and the ability to take down the opponent's explorer/s really early.

i think that the first one is the best, BTW, some time ago, i suggested that, and many people agreed with me.

the problem is that i don't know if this can be done

I agree with most of the stuff u said also,

 Dutch.

dutch idea is really good, the explorer should be able to produce envoys. the spy instead of an envoy is just crazy and OP. Also dutch is the worse civ on age 2, a RI shipment will be nice however it wont happen, apart from china dutch was very affected by the late patch and is a very weak civ at the moment on age 2. What they should do is give back the orignal 140 XP for each bank, and take spies back to its original settings of 10 hand attack which will give life to 5 spies shipment that dutch has in colonial. I dont really undertand why spies were nerfed they cost 125 gold for a unit with 10 hand attack( before patch) 150 Hp and the occupy 2 slot of population which is disadvantage for dutch because they are always short on wood. However spies are avaliable for every euro civ so it wont be something only for dutch.

if you look at spy vs warclub, spies cost 125, 10 Hand attack, 150 hp, 20 siege.

warclub cost 50 food, 40 wood, 10 hand attack X 4 against cav X 3 vs LI, 120 Hp 27 siege.

Warclubs cost 35 res less, 30 less HP but 7 more siege, and their bonuses are very usefull in colonial, Now spies bonuses are not really usefull at all since its very strange to see something going merc in early game , they only thing that can be usefull at is to spy the enemy.

I know the units have 2 different rows but just for the discussion... I think spies should get back to its orinal settings, however even before they were nerferd they werent really mush used at all, because of they high gold cost, its not easy to keep up vills/ skims and spies at the same time since they are all gold heavy units.

 Brits

I agree LB should be 15 range 1.5 vs HI.When LBs are protected in a base they own cav before cav even gets to them.

Japs

Japs should go back to its orginal settings with the shrines I dont really know what was ES thinking when they boosted Shrines by 50 %. The only explanation I find is to make japs more competitive in late games, well they should have the card which will upgrade shrines production by 100% in age 4.  Ashi should stay as they are just take out the 15% improvement that they have in age 2. With Golden Pavilion + Japs Consulate + Golden pavilion upgrade is enough improvement for them in age 2. Any how maybe it  is still be OP since sepoys dont have any upgrades in age 2 and people still complain.

India

I dont think india is so OP, a resonable solution to nerferd 10/10 will be instead of 2 sepoys, 2 gurkas,  this will slow down 10/10 rush. However 10/10 is very expected and not hard to beat at all, what india is very good at in age 2 is taking map control and when ever they are in trouble sitting behing the fort. Anyhow if you are able to beat the 10/10 rush then you will be on top since the india player sacrifed some time without making vills  so he needs to harrass ur eco so he can match up and actually take control of the game. Maybe moving desert terror to age 3 can be a resonable option too.

Otto

These guys are pretty balance, they are just very sensitive if they loose 3 to 4 vills in early colonial thats pretty mush GG. Since it takes too long for them to recover and the other civ wil just outboom them, So the only thing I thought could help ottos is to add -2 points   Koprulu Viziers( second vill production improvement ) which cost 250 wood, and raise the cost to 300 wood. so instead of -8 train points maybe -10, which will wont be something that will make them OP considering that they have to pay 200 g for vills limit at 25. Also like everyone said they suck against cav, I would love if they get pikes but it just wont happen lol.

 Russians

Opriks are too good to be thrue, their Siege damage is Op they can raid vills, ur vills hide in an outpost for cover they will take the outpost down and kill ur vills before ur army even gets there.

Actually, I faced a merc rush once, with 14 Jaegers, 9 Black Riders, 11 Landschnects and 8 Hackapells at 10 minutes. Arguably, imo this could kill pretty much anything in age 2 and possibly in age 3 at this time. Of course, I made 50 spies (his deck was incredibly obvious) and pwned them by killing the Jaegers and Black Riders in stealth, and hand to hand with everything else.

well but thats 1 in 100, its very rare to see someone using merc in age 2, and the point was that spies were balance as they were and if they decide to put them back on 10 hand attack this will give dutch 1 military shipment of 5 spies, which they need desparately in order to survive age 2. Im saying 5 spies for dutch because they got nothing better  to send, but this shipment is avaliable to some other europeans civs they just dont use it because they have better military shipments to send.

So u want spies to be boosted so u can defend with them? I think the point of the nerf was to stop people from doing that... and seriously 5 spies will defend against NOTHING if theyre a good rusher.

Besides, if u want to defend, ship colonial militia. Then a TC can drop an xbow/pike in one shot, and u can get masses of militia if they push hard.

that is the best you can do to help dutch, along with giving them their banks XP back. they wont add a shipment, we all know that, and colonial militia can take a pike or an Xbows but you need 10 vills with out producing sitting in ur tc, and what about if he goes heavy cav CM wont work at all. dutch is such a shame is the only civ that needs to send the CM card to survive I dont think thats balanced. And i dont want spies to be boosted I just want them to be as its original settings. i dont see anything wrong with using them as a reg unit, their cost is relatively high and they occupy 2 slots of population, for only 10 hand attack and 150 hp.

If he goes heavy cav then hes not trying to siege ur TC If hes going heavy cav, it means hes trying to eco raid whilst booming or simply making them to counter military imo. Making heavy cav just to prevent one hit kills from CM is a bit much, Dutch can still get pikes and then thoroughly pwn them if they attempt to siege.

Admittedly, boosting the Dutch 8 pike shipment to 9 pikes would be a reasonable change, along with the bounty idea. Or, Dutch banks also produce a small XP trickle, something like 0.15 (or 3.75% on the current rate) each?

well the thing is since banks no more have 140 Xp, and you are expecting a rush your first combo is gonna be 10 skims/8pikes or 10 skims/CM. you have to choose b/w colonial militia or pikes for your second shipment, so if he goes cav/xbows and u send cm thats pretty mush gg right there. if you send 8 pikes and he goes musk/xbows also gg. unless you send 1card cm 2nd card 8 pikes and forget about building any banks which will get ur economy behind since dutch players have to be trapped in their base most of the time, and banks maintain ur eco because u dont have to go out of ur base to get res. 9 pikes wont make any difference dutch suck in age 2 due to their lack of military shipments and unit choices, its pretty mush skims/pike 90% of the time, some of them go early hussars/skims which leads dutch into colonial battles and no shipment to back them up.

Dutch can get good ff times and turtle, I managed to get a fort and 6 outposts the other day at 9 mins, and this forces him to boom pretty much, which ull do better early on because of banks. Then u just push with ruyters and skirms/cannons.

pardon me my friend but its impossible to get to fortress at min 9 with 6 outpost and banks either you use the wood on banks or you use it to build outpost, if you decide to go outpost then ur eco will suck badly since you will have only 1 bank( from shipment ) or no banks at all.