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Last post 11-08-2008, 12:31 PM by murdilator. 17 replies.
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Subject:
Turtleing: Not as good as rushing? What happened to Outposts?
Hi guys, I used to be an avid turtler and I was not a rushing player for a long time. I sincerely miss this fact and loved my first civ, the Portuguese.
Do any of you remember the patch were barracks and stables were reduced from 250 wood to 200 wood to "help against rush?" (This was in the days of the Ottoman rush)
Do any of you remember when a different patch reduced TC hitpoints from 7500 to 6500 to "make it easier to rush?" (This was also in the days of the Ottoman rush)
And now, the final nerf, TC multiplier against cavalry removed. Now this was a fair change for flail elephants/elephant rushes, but still it should be considered as a nerf to TC's. Also think of this: How powerful do you think units such as cossacks, oprichnicks, ulhans, and hussar rushes are?
Now I want to ask you this question: What do you usually do in a Supremacy game? Do you rush or do you turtle? Do you boom? And furthermore, do any of you recall that turtleing was never improved, only nerfed, while rushing was ALWAYS improved.
My petition is that we boost outposts in a certain way such as this:
Reduce Outpost cost from 250 to 200 wood, and add +3.0 to build limit, making you able to build 10 outposts instead of 7.
You may think that this may be "OP", but it is fair because it fits in with barracks and stable cost. Sure, these things can shoot, but can they train soldiers? In addition they only have 24 range, while most players stay at 26+ range.
Think of it. Portuguese could have a better chance at turtleing, and most civs could consider turtleing an option, meaning that they don't need to FF instead of rushing; they can boom away.
Still, you can easily nock out the Outposts. Just go to age 3, and get artillery. If you don't get cannons (if you are natives, India, or China), then you can use Rams/mantlets, Siege dance with warclubs, Puma spearmen, Siege elephants, or hand morters/flamethrowers. If the guy turtles hard, this wouldn't be a problem. However, if you are rushing, and if you have used most of your resources on troops, you can't really do much.
Now how many of you think that this is even a decent idea. Outposts, which have never been boosted in any way, only indirectly nerfed (barracks and stable cost reduction), deserve a boost such as described above. Now what do you think? The choice is yours.
Motto:
We can't beat Japan because we don't try.
My current Scenarios: 1v1OntarioV2 (http://aoe3.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=2213)
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Subject:
Re: Turtleing: Not as good as rushing? What happened to Outposts?
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Stupid idea, turtling sucks anyways. Sure, you'll have a big outpost and lots of farmers by farming (40), but he can just have 20 settlers on animals and he'll get more food than you.
Units I hate -
Horse artillery
Janissary
Yumi
Ashigaru
Samurai
Yabasume
Naginata rider
Daimyo
Flaming Arrow
Arrow knight
Jaguar prowl knight
Cuirassier
Oprichinik
Flying Crow (they suck)
Abus gun
Highlander
Fusilier
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Subject:
Re: Turtleing: Not as good as rushing? What happened to Outposts?
I like turtling and I agree that boosting outposts could be great for ports . . . only ports. Almost all other civs have extensive fortifications that allow them to build 6 more outposts in a total of 13, 3 more would be too much. Ports don´t have it so if they could build 10 it would be cool. Ports were meant to be the ultimate turtling civ, but they only have better walls than other civs, the early TC are effective at eco expense as you have to garrison villies.
Outpost cost if it´s changed like you said then team cheap outpost card that ports have would make them cost 140 wood, less than an advanced trading post. It could be a litlle OP. Imo TC cavalry bonus should be added again.
I think your idea should be considered though, I don´t see many turtlers . . .
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Subject:
Re: Turtleing: Not as good as rushing? What happened to Outposts?
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just build walls around your tower, slows them down and lets your tower get several more kills in before it dies, imo towers r only good to garrison your hunters/gold miners from attacks until your army gets there, or use the 2 tower card to add defense to your fb, i like using that card to tower the other guy's hunts, while he is focused on knocking them down, i move behind his base and kill all vills i can before he pulls back
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Subject:
Re: Turtleing: Not as good as rushing? What happened to Outposts?
 MrMusketeer:Stupid idea, turtling sucks anyways. Sure, you'll have a big outpost and lots of farmers by farming (40), but he can just have 20 settlers on animals and he'll get more food than you.
It is interesting to find such a singular opinion. Of course with those 10 outposts costing 200 wood I'm going to herd at least 3 hunt groups, if not 4. Therefore it could be a semi FF, where I get Culverins +Xbows + Dragoons (or 2 culverin, 20 cassadors and 13 dragoons; something like that).
You know, I was actually aiming this thread a bit at Portugal, but still in most games other European teams never build outposts. They either rush or boom. Most players see that outposts aren't worth it much. I believe that turtleing from any civ should beat rushing hard. In fact, it should be a long semi FF, where you own a rush, but are usually beaten by a boom. By this change, who wouldn't use outposts? (By the way though, outposts are not invincible; they are easily killed by grenadiers, cannons, oprichnicks, pikemen, steppe riders, cannons, rams, mantlets, etc.)
Motto:
We can't beat Japan because we don't try.
My current Scenarios: 1v1OntarioV2 (http://aoe3.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=2213)
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Subject:
Re: Turtleing: Not as good as rushing? What happened to Outposts?
murdilator: MrMusketeer: Stupid idea, turtling sucks anyways. Sure, you'll have a big outpost and lots of farmers by farming (40), but he can just have 20 settlers on animals and he'll get more food than you.
It is interesting to find such a singular opinion. Of course with those 10 outposts costing 200 wood I'm going to herd at least 3 hunt groups, if not 4. Therefore it could be a semi FF, where I get Culverins +Xbows + Dragoons (or 2 culverin, 20 cassadors and 13 dragoons; something like that).
You know, I was actually aiming this thread a bit at Portugal, but still in most games other European teams never build outposts. They either rush or boom. Most players see that outposts aren't worth it much. I believe that turtleing from any civ should beat rushing hard. In fact, it should be a long semi FF, where you own a rush, but are usually beaten by a boom. By this change, who wouldn't use outposts?
(By the way though, outposts are not invincible; they are easily killed by grenadiers, cannons, oprichnicks, pikemen, steppe riders, cannons, rams, mantlets, etc.)
honestly, outposts are fine, if you have 3-4 well placed, you can kill a super fast rush
Do you use the word "pretentious" in a pretentious manner? The belief of "pretentious" being pretentious might itself be pretentious, but that would than further go to prove that the word "pretentious" is pretentious.
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Subject:
Re: Turtleing: Not as good as rushing? What happened to Outposts?
gooback: murdilator: MrMusketeer: Stupid idea, turtling sucks anyways. Sure, you'll have a big outpost and lots of farmers by farming (40), but he can just have 20 settlers on animals and he'll get more food than you.
It is interesting to find such a singular opinion. Of course with those 10 outposts costing 200 wood I'm going to herd at least 3 hunt groups, if not 4. Therefore it could be a semi FF, where I get Culverins +Xbows + Dragoons (or 2 culverin, 20 cassadors and 13 dragoons; something like that).
You know, I was actually aiming this thread a bit at Portugal, but still in most games other European teams never build outposts. They either rush or boom. Most players see that outposts aren't worth it much. I believe that turtleing from any civ should beat rushing hard. In fact, it should be a long semi FF, where you own a rush, but are usually beaten by a boom. By this change, who wouldn't use outposts?
(By the way though, outposts are not invincible; they are easily killed by grenadiers, cannons, oprichnicks, pikemen, steppe riders, cannons, rams, mantlets, etc.)
honestly, outposts are fine, if you have 3-4 well placed, you can kill a super fast rush
*Sarcasm
Yup thats right. You'll kill the fast rush, have 16 vils, 460 food, 87 wood and 123 coin, while your opponent just started to FF. Honestly, Outposts take 50 seconds to build. 4 x 50 = 200 seconds. Thats a lot. Plus Outposts currently cost ~500 Villager Seconds. Thats why they need this boost - this game needs the rock/paper/scissors idea back again (partially).
Motto:
We can't beat Japan because we don't try.
My current Scenarios: 1v1OntarioV2 (http://aoe3.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=2213)
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Blowgunner  |
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USA: beware- we now invade continents. |
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Subject:
Re: Turtleing: Not as good as rushing? What happened to Outposts?
Português:
Ports don´t have it so if they could build 10 it would be cool.
yeah, even better would be the extensive fortification card added. (though it would not help stop a rush, it would at least give players the opportunity to consider turtleing) ship adv. Fortifications THEN extensiv fortifications? Yes, that would allow the Fast industrial strategy to reoccur, giving players more options. Keep in mind that in order to build a outpost, only 4 vills can be on it, and 1 takes 500 settler seconds to build. In this way, outpost can make a comeback without being a over played asset.
Português:
Outpost cost if it´s changed like you said then team cheap outpost card that ports have would make them cost 140 wood, less than an advanced trading post. It could be a litlle OP.
This would be OverPowered if it was kept in TEAM. 140 for only the portugal player would be good. the current cost WITH the team card is 175. That is only 75 wood reduction. The damn British card "Virginia Company" get you 700 wood for maxed manors. I agree, raise the Cheap Outpost Card reduction, but keep take away the TEAM.
If you are smoking after sex, you are doing it too fast.
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wazzal |
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australia,adelaide -belgium,bruxelles -latvia,riga |
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Subject:
Re: Turtleing: Not as good as rushing? What happened to Outposts?
murdilator: gooback: murdilator: MrMusketeer: Stupid idea, turtling sucks anyways. Sure, you'll have a big outpost and lots of farmers by farming (40), but he can just have 20 settlers on animals and he'll get more food than you.
It is interesting to find such a singular opinion. Of course with those 10 outposts costing 200 wood I'm going to herd at least 3 hunt groups, if not 4. Therefore it could be a semi FF, where I get Culverins +Xbows + Dragoons (or 2 culverin, 20 cassadors and 13 dragoons; something like that).
You know, I was actually aiming this thread a bit at Portugal, but still in most games other European teams never build outposts. They either rush or boom. Most players see that outposts aren't worth it much. I believe that turtleing from any civ should beat rushing hard. In fact, it should be a long semi FF, where you own a rush, but are usually beaten by a boom. By this change, who wouldn't use outposts?
(By the way though, outposts are not invincible; they are easily killed by grenadiers, cannons, oprichnicks, pikemen, steppe riders, cannons, rams, mantlets, etc.)
honestly, outposts are fine, if you have 3-4 well placed, you can kill a super fast rush
*Sarcasm
Yup thats right. You'll kill the fast rush, have 16 vils, 460 food, 87 wood and 123 coin, while your opponent just started to FF.
Honestly, Outposts take 50 seconds to build. 4 x 50 = 200 seconds. Thats a lot. Plus Outposts currently cost ~500 Villager Seconds. Thats why they need this boost - this game needs the rock/paper/scissors idea back again (partially).
I agree with gooback, 3 outposts are a significant def against a rush, just place them near each other (to a certain degree), take advantage of small forests near by, and place your houses well, besides, what u said about taking 200 secs to build 4 outposts, it takes 50 secs to build 3 with just 2 more settlers, and the exp is very useful for later shipments.
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