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Last post 05-20-2013, 6:25 AM by Milky__. 9 replies.
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  •  05-20-2013, 2:09 AM 989126
    Ivan Grozny Ivan Grozny is not online. Last active: 19 Jun 2013, 5:37 PM
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    Subject: OP to UP

    Why not make a list of DM civs from OP to UP (TAD, GP only, etc)? I have seen many people argue on which are the OPest civs in DM. Imho:

     

    1st russia, really easy to rush, raid, spam inf... and they have a really good win ratio to back up that claim. They kind of lack proper ranged cav, but they don't really need it to be the top civ. I kind of hate them just because they're so easy. At top levels they aren't that good since people actually know how to play most other civs, but they still are most definitely a top civ.

    2nd ports. amazing mortar range + amazing goon range. Even in DM those goons can micro good enough. Add a few cassas and the combo becomes lame as hell. Probably the best civ at 35++

    3rd dutch. Its really easy to spam banks once the game starts, giving an amazing eco boost by the first 5 mins, which easily outbooms most civs. Ruyters are cool, but it sucks they cost 1 pop as it adds a lot of pathing trouble. If you defend well enough the first few mins you should do good enough.

    4th germs. War wagons. Nuff' said. They don't have anything else to back themselves up - but WWs are just so good they don't actually need them. Probably the 2nd easiest civ.

    5th spain. Instant tercios + unction. Maybe should be 4th, Idk, I haven't played them, nor against them, enough times to remember how good tercios are vs ranged cav spams. Which is a shame since unction is pretty fun. IMHO the best non-OP civ.

    6th france. Gendarmes are still pretty good, sometimes even against ranged cav. They can be really competitive against civs without proper anti cav. Otherwise they don't have much to back themselves up.

    7th sioux. Bow riders are pretty cool, if you know how to add tepees you could do good. Losses to 1 min cav rushes, but, then again, games are unrated if you resign before the 2 min mark. It really helps that your opponent can't raid houses. Depend a lot on the fire pit. Having no factories hurts them a lot. Require plenty of skill to be played.

    8th brits. Really meh, the manor boom is too slow in DMs, and their military is kind of mediocre.

    9th Iros. Kind of underated The early 30 tommas are much better than those 6 minutemen. Unfortunately, games aren't rated before the 2 min mark so many people just resign if you're planning to do one of the quickest rush of DM MUs - at the same time said rule helps you out (any early (around 1 min) quick cav rush would cripple them). Crappy anti cav and crappy cav. Depend on fire pit (which can be easily raided).

    10th Ottos. There's not much to back this guys up. Sucky ranged cav. Abus can be surprisingly effective, though. Viable in many maps outside of GP.

    11th China. Really vulnerable to 1 min rushes. The lack of mercantilism or instant units hurts them a lot. Just as ottos, they could do somewhat good outside of GP.

    12th India. Cav trains too slow, and howdahs aren't actually that good as you'd expect.. you seriously need the proper cards early on, which you can't get as you have no mercantilism, proper howdah micro can be a pain in the ass against a few civs, though.

    13th Aztecs. Crappy military (their "good" military trains so slow it hurts - and it's expensive enough not to be viable at all... yay), no proper cav, and their units train too *** slow (getting the war huts up takes a lot of time too...). Really vulnerable to rushes, but at the very least they got decent guard pikes. The only point to back aztecs up is the early 18 (?) prowler rush. However it makes most people resign, making the game unrated. If played outside GP they might not look as crippled, but hardly a civ to be taken seriously.

    14th japan. The lack of mercantilism, fast unit training, early export and wonders hurt them shitless. They requiere at least 10 mins to be a proper civ to challenge, and even then they really suck to be honest.


    It's like the guys who designed TAD completely forget there was another game type other than supremacy. Hell, I even remember that before the first patch you could age to imperial with the asian civs. The retards behind ES didn't realize that this "bug" actually made the TAD civs "somewhat" competitive in MUs (but not really that much, as asians still were too vulnerable against rushes), and kind of compensated their lack of an early mercantilism or a good late game.


    Milky__:
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  •  05-20-2013, 2:35 AM 989127 in reply to 989126
    Milky__ Milky__ is online. Last active: Wed, Jun 19 2013, 5:57 PM
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    Subject: Re: OP to UP
    I agree with most of this, but I'd put port at #1, German at #2 and Russia at #3 on GP. On any other map, I'd agree with this completely

    Ivan Grozny:

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  •  05-20-2013, 2:40 AM 989128 in reply to 989127
    Ivan Grozny Ivan Grozny is not online. Last active: 19 Jun 2013, 5:37 PM
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    Subject: Re: OP to UP

    Milky__:
    I agree with most of this, but I'd put port at #1, German at #2 and Russia at #3 on GP. On any other map, I'd agree with this completely

    Mind elaborating more, plos?


    Milky__:
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  •  05-20-2013, 2:50 AM 989130 in reply to 989128
    Milky__ Milky__ is online. Last active: Wed, Jun 19 2013, 5:57 PM
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    Subject: Re: OP to UP

    I don't see how anything in any of the other civ's kit can compete with port goons; 20 range, best goons in game, instant spam, plus they can use their 50 range morts.

    Same deal with WW. Only way to beat them is to be fuckin amazing and drain them out slowly. But WW are so strong that's impossible, apart from port goons.

    Just my theory 


    Ivan Grozny:

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  •  05-20-2013, 2:58 AM 989131 in reply to 989130
    Ivan Grozny Ivan Grozny is not online. Last active: 19 Jun 2013, 5:37 PM
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    Subject: Re: OP to UP

    I feel dutch outdrain germans with banks, and that instant russian musks + strelets + opris beat them too (it isn't that easy to micro with WWs, and russian units are amazingly cost-effective)... I think it's just very easy to deprive your opponent of pop or eco as Russia. Otherwise I'd find agreeable that ports are the most OP civ... Ranged inf can pose them somewhat of a threat, but it's just too hard to get it early on (nevertheless, unfortunately, russian strelets have a really sucky range). However I still feel russia would manage to outboom them or simply beat them with the amazing cost-effectiveness of their inf.


    Milky__:
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  •  05-20-2013, 3:17 AM 989132 in reply to 989131
    Milky__ Milky__ is online. Last active: Wed, Jun 19 2013, 5:57 PM
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    Subject: Re: OP to UP
    I see your point, but that would mean actually trying to HOLD them. It's so hard to do.

    Ivan Grozny:

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  •  05-20-2013, 5:35 AM 989152 in reply to 989132
    Jerom Jerom is online. Last active: 19 Jun 2013, 5:55 PM
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    Subject: Re: OP to UP
    You can't hit n run with War Wagons though.

    [N3O] Jerom_the_brave
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  •  05-20-2013, 5:56 AM 989160 in reply to 989152
    Milky__ Milky__ is online. Last active: Wed, Jun 19 2013, 5:57 PM
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    Subject: Re: OP to UP
    No but what CAN you do vs almost 50 warwagons, and like 15 skirm (apart from 100 port goons)

    Ivan Grozny:

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  •  05-20-2013, 6:02 AM 989162 in reply to 989160
    Ivan Grozny Ivan Grozny is not online. Last active: 19 Jun 2013, 5:37 PM
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    Subject: Re: OP to UP

    ...***, you're right. I believe your best choice would be to continue spamming musks + strelets and raiding, but if he does a proper micro he will definitely beat you. Even russia's cost-effectiveness wouldn't save you.

    Altho I still think dutch eco would beat that...

    Russia > Dutch > Germs > Russia?


    Milky__:
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  •  05-20-2013, 6:25 AM 989163 in reply to 989162
    Milky__ Milky__ is online. Last active: Wed, Jun 19 2013, 5:57 PM
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    Subject: Re: OP to UP

    I pretty much played dutch for my duration of DM, and I found that while you can get a really powerful eco, the gold just gets sucked up with ruyters and skirms on GP vs a german or a port. In theory 150 ruyters should be enough to push 50 Warwagons, but the pathing is horrible and the low range means not only will WW get an extra shot on them, but they will still be pathing when they get killed. It really sucks up your gold and it's hard to maintain 200/200 pop when your ruyter almost get 1 hit lol.

    This is why I don't like GP, because it's less about micro and more about who can get goons out the fastest and attack move. I really enjoyed DM on other maps where using infantry was actually viable, especially as dutch because I felt I could actually compete, and I think Dutch are a really powerful civ off GP. 

    imo Port > Ger > Dutch > Russia on GP, not really sure on other maps.

    If I was able to get dutch to level 40, I'd definitely have played russia. They looked really fun; their compositions would have been awesome to toy with, and you can get epic map control with opri and musk + forts 


    Ivan Grozny:

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